Joining us on "The Downballot" this week is North Carolina Rep. Wiley Nickel, the first member of Congress to appear on the show! Nickel gives us the blow-by-blow of his unlikely victory that saw him flip an extremely competitive seat from red to blue last year, including how he adjusted when a new map gave him a very different district and why highlighting the extremism of his MAGA-flavored opponent was key to his success. A true election nerd, Nickel tells us which precincts he was tracking on election night that let him know he was going to win—and which fellow House freshman is the one you want to rock out with at a concert.
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Co-hosts David Nir and David Beard also recap Tuesday's awesome primary results in Virginia that spelled the end of the execrable Joe Morrissey's career in the state Senate. What's more, thanks to losses by several other conservative Democratic incumbents, the Democratic caucus will grow more progressive overall next year. But it's not all good news: The Davids tear apart a pair of awful GOP bills just signed by Texas Gov. Greg Abbott aimed at giving Republicans control of elections in the state's largest county—which just so happens to be trending to the left.
This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.
David Beard: Hello and welcome. I'm David Beard, contributing editor for Daily Kos Elections.
David Nir: And I'm David Nir, political director of Daily Kos. “The Downballot” is a weekly podcast dedicated to the many elections that take place below the presidency from Senate to city council. Please subscribe to “The Downballot” on Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review.
Beard: We've got a really special episode this week I'm very excited about. Tell us about it.
Nir: I am super stoked as well. First up, we are going to be discussing the excellent election results that just came out of the Virginia primaries this week. Then we're going to be talking about some not-so-excellent bills passed by Texas Republicans that would allow them to subvert elections in the state's largest county. But the reason why we're so excited is that our guest this week is North Carolina Congressman Wiley Nickel who was first elected to the 13th District last year. We are going to be talking about his unlikely win, what the future holds for him, what he thinks Republicans are going to do with gerrymandering in his state, and much, much more. Excellent, excellent episode and interview coming up, so let's get rolling.
Beard, I don't know how many times I've said it so far this year, but we had another freaking great election night. What's going on?
Beard: I know, I know. I'm sure at some point the worm will turn and we'll have some bad ones, but I'm just going to keep pushing that as far down the road as possible because this is much more fun.
Nir: Yeah, this is way more fun. I'm not even going to think about it. Let's think about Tuesday night, Virginia primaries, multiple conservative Democratic dinosaurs, lost bids to more progressive opponents, but obviously by far the most important to go down in flames was Joe Morrissey. Former delegate, Lachrecse Aird absolutely crushed him by a 69-31 margin. We have devoted a lot of time on this show to just how awful Joe Morrissey is. More than anything else though... Well, you know what? It's actually very hard to pick what the worst thing about Joe Morrissey is, whether it's his many, many scandals, the fact that his estranged wife is now in divorce allegations claiming that he had abused her and in fact had sex with her when she was still just 17 years old, or the fact that he calls himself pro-life and had held himself out as a possible ally to Republicans who wanted to ban abortion to at least one degree or another in Virginia.
Anyway, he's gone. He's done. And what this means is that Democrats will no longer ever have to rely on Joe Morrissey again. They only have a 22 to 18 margin in the Senate. But what that means is that even if they lose a seat this November, they'll still have 21 reliable members in the caucus, which means that they won't be at risk of a situation where you have a 20 to 20 vote and the far-right lieutenant governor gets to break ties. And that was always a threat with Morrissey.
Look, he could still have yet another political comeback in him. He has had many in the past including running for office when he was in jail, which he managed to do successfully. So I guess you can't rule that out, but he's getting up there in years at this point. And this was just a thumping. He had defied and confounded political observers for years with his ability to survive in spite of everything but losing more than two to one, I'd like to think his career is over.
Beard: Yeah. I think one of the old phrases is sunlight is the best disinfectant and I think that really was part of the case here where because of the fact that the Senate was 21 to 19 before Democrats won that special election, the fact that he was then the deciding vote on things like potential abortion legislation and other things really made the fact that he was this huge embarrassment and this risk on all these issues so much brighter.
His attempted run for Congress, I think was a huge mistake from his part just to raise his profile which is really what he wouldn't have wanted because I think oftentimes he had skated through in these low-turnout elections based on some very small number of alliances and interpersonal relationships. Once it became a broader race with issues that were really important to people and then you had a great candidate like Aird in, he had no chance at that point. I don't think any comeback is going to let him get back to what used to make him successful.
Nir: I think that's a really good point. And in a way, it reminds me a little bit of what happened with the IDC New York. That was the group of renegade Democrats in the state Senate here who had for years propped up the GOP and cited with Republican leaders against the rest of their party. And in the Trump era, once their actions became, I don't know, better known, like you said, more sunlight cast down upon them, then people started seeing, "Oh wow, you're actually propping up the bad guys. We don't want you around anymore." I think like Morrissey, he was really a political cockroach and I think that analogy is apt in more ways than one because I think he, like you say, he thrived in the darkness and not in the light.
I think the IDC analogy goes even a little bit more broadly because multiple conservative or more moderate Democratic incumbents lost on Tuesday night in Virginia. In fact, five incumbent state senators lost their primaries. That was as many in a single night as had lost primaries over the last two and a half decades. And the end result is that the Democratic caucus is going to get a lot more progressive overall.
One of the real shock upsets was longtime state Senator Chap Petersen, who was defeated by Saddam Salim by a 54-46 margin despite outspending his opponent more than five to one. Petersen is one of these old-school guys who flipped a seat held by Republicans in northern Virginia back in 2007 and he never really seemed to grasp the notion that northern Virginia had just become a lot bluer over the years. In fact, the district that he wanted to continue representing had voted for Joe Biden with 70% of the vote.
By the way, as an aside, I should note that this is the first time that Virginia is holding elections on new maps. So a lot of these incumbents were facing new constituents, but that wasn't Petersen's only problem by any stretch. In 2021 when Democrats still had control of all of Virginia's state government, he helped kill a ban on assault weapons. He was always bad on guns. There's this quote from him from the AP at the time. He said, "I may have been a Joe Manchin type, but I was one of a few Joe Manchins in the Senate. I mean, the Senate defeated a number of House bills that we thought were overreaching, but that's kind of our role."
I mean, no, it really isn't. Your role is to represent your constituents and to pass good legislation and to make Virginia proud. It's not this sort of, I don't know, fantasy DC beltway pundit idea of the Senate being the saucer that cools the teacup that they talk about with the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives. So it seems that Petersen just really had a mistaken idea of what his role as a legislature was supposed to be, and he wasn't the only one.
Beard: Yeah. I think Petersen, despite way outspending his opponent, just never had a good message beyond his generic Manchin moderateness. And Salim, who I didn't really know much about before last night, just has a great story and clearly was able to get that out there, despite not having as much money as Petersen. He immigrated from Bangladesh in the wake of floods when he was eight years old with his family. His family was homeless on the streets of DC for a time when he was young. Friends took them in and he ended up going to middle school and high school in Fairfax County, did a lot of incredibly impressive stuff, had to learn English because when they were evicted, nobody in the family spoke English, so they didn't know what was happening as a result of them. And then they became homeless. So it's just a great, great story, and I think he's going to be a huge upgrade on Petersen.
Nir: Yeah. There's just no question about that. Petersen and Morrissey weren't the only more moderate to conservative Democrats who lost. There was one incumbent versus incumbent matchup between Senators Louise Lucas and Lionel Spruill. Lucas, who is the much more liberal of the two, won 53 to 47. As the Washington Post put it, Spruill had the quote “habit” of walking off the floor to avoid voting on LGBTQ rights measures. And in this Washington Post piece, it actually just links to a vote on a particular bill that lists the roll call and Spruill is listed as the one person who's absent, which I just thought was a nice nerdy way to damn him.
Spruill had claimed he's not anti-gay. He said, "I have people in my family that way. That's their choice." I mean, talk about being out of step. Do we even need to get into why that statement just sounds so, so wrong? Anyway, he's going to be gone too now.
Beard: Yeah. The only thing I'll say about that is that if he so desperately doesn't want to vote in the state Senate, he doesn't have to anymore. He doesn't have to vote on anything anymore. So go take your retirement.
Nir: Well, one other person who soon will not be able to vote on anything in the state Senate anymore is the one Republican senator who lost, and that was Amanda Chase. Now, in a way, this is “bad” news. I put air quotes around bad. She is a disaster train wreck of a human being. She called herself Trump in heels, and she had made enemies of pretty much every single other member of the Republican Party; her caucus absolutely despised her. The only reason why I say this is bad news is that had she won renomination, it's possible that Democrats could have made her district competitive. It's still not really very friendly turf though. So even if Chase had been the nominee, the race probably wouldn't have come online. She lost very narrowly though 39 to 38 to former state Senator Glen Sturtevant.
But there will be a pretty considerable playing field of competitive races. There are at least four races that are almost certainly going to be up for grabs in November. Several more that could come online on either side. The Senate is really close, like I mentioned. Republicans only need two seats to take control again. Because if there's a 2020 tie, the lieutenant governor can break ties.
The House is also very close. Republicans hold a 52-48 majority there. So Democrats need three seats to take outright control of the House. There wasn't the same intense primary action on the House side on Tuesday night, but there will be an even bigger playing field in November, and we will take a deep dive into those races very soon as well.
Beard: Yes. That will be the big legislative races of the fall, obviously in Virginia, where both chambers are going to be up for grabs. Glenn Youngkin would love to take over the state Senate and hold the House to pass a bunch of Republican legislation and then last minute run for president or something. So there's going to be a big fight there, and Democrats are going to want to take over the House and prepare for 2025 elections with an open governor's race.
Nir: So that does it for our Virginia wrap-up, but there is one other important state we want to talk about, and that is Texas, where Republicans just passed some extremely retrograde bills that are pure and simple designed to undermine democracy.
Beard: Yeah. Texas, of course, has a long history of going after voting rights and making it hard for people of color, college students, et cetera, to vote. Basically anyone who might vote for Democrats, they don't want you to vote. They just want Republicans to vote. And in the latest line of attacks, GOP Governor Greg Abbott, just signed two pieces of legislation that would attack these voting rights further.
Both of them go after a single county in Texas, Harris County, which is home to Houston and more than 4.7 million people. And of course, it's also a county that's been shifting left since the Trump era. Now, normally county officials have very wide authority in Texas when it comes to running elections in their jurisdictions. And under Democratic leadership recently, Harris County has made voting more accessible. But of course, as I said, Republicans don't want that.
So the first of these new laws empowers Republican Secretary of State Jane Nelson, who is an Abbott appointee, to take over almost every aspect of election administration. And she can do that basically with very little pretext. All she needs is a candidate or party, like the Republican Party, to file a complaint. And all she needs is good cause to believe that a recurring pattern of problems with election administration or voter registration exists in accounting.
But she doesn't have to prove that. She just has to believe it. So basically she can just take this power based on the flimsiest of complaints from the Republican Party and take over basically all of the running of Harris County elections. And who knows what restrictions, what changes, what polling place closures that she might go and enact once she takes control of elections in Harris County. So that's a huge problem.
But even if that doesn't happen, the second bill also significantly alters who runs elections in Harris County. That law abolishes the position of election administrator, which is a nonpartisan official that's been appointed by county lawmakers. It gets rid of that and instead reverts it to the elected county clerk and tax assessor.
Now, while Democrats hold those offices currently, of course Harris County has been very competitive in recent years. So there's every possibility that Republicans could win back those offices, and run the elections by winning those next county elections.
And of course, the way that these laws were targeted, it of course doesn't say Harris County in the bill, but the first bill only applies to counties with at least 4 million residents. And the second only applies to counties with more than 3.5 million residents. The second-largest county in Texas is Dallas County. It only has a population of 2.6 million. It's way below the threshold. So obviously these are very specifically targeted towards Harris County and towards the blue-shifting Harris County the Republicans are mad about.
Nir: That bit about reverting power over elections to the tax assessor is wild. Why the tax assessor? So our Daily Kos Elections colleague Stephen Wolf wrote about this and it turns out that the tax assessor's role historically was a relic of Jim Crow, because the tax assessor was responsible for maintaining voter registration roles.
Why the tax assessor? Because they assessed poll taxes. I mean, holy crap. So this system of having the clerk and the tax assessor run elections apparently has been done away with in all of Texas's major counties. So this represents just a bizarre rollback. And of course, you could understand why Republicans like it.
Beard: Yeah. Does it surprise me the Republicans are doing this? No. But it's still outrageous.
Nir: Yeah. There are of course promised legal challenges. Opponents say that the Texas State Constitution prohibits laws that single out a specific jurisdiction, and that may be why Republicans have tried this absolute nonsense with these population thresholds and also doing arbitrarily different ones in each bill 4 million in one and 3.5 million in the other, to try to claim that they really aren't targeting just Harris County.
Any reasonable judge you'd think would find that, yeah, no, this really does target an individual county. I would say though, that the Texas state courts have to be just about the worst in the nation, if not the worst. And there are some red states where the Supreme Courts are conservative, but at least potentially reasonable. Texas isn't one of them. Texas is just a far-right, partisan, hack court that really will rubber stamp just about anything that Abbott and the legislature do. So I'm not optimistic here. Really, there's just not a lot to say. This is just more bullshit.
Beard: Yeah. I agree completely that it's very hard to see the Texas Supreme Court coming to help, even if there's some very clear reasons why this legislation is unconstitutional. So we've seen in places you can fight through a lot of these types of voter restrictions, that doesn't mean you should have to. I want to be clear on that. These laws are crap. But the fact that they're there doesn't mean that Democrats can't still do well in Harris County. They just have to fight even harder to do so.
Nir: Well that does it for our weekly hits. Coming up, we have a very exciting interview. It's a first for “The Downballot.” We are going to be talking with North Carolina Congressman Wiley Nickel, who was first elected to office just last year. We have a huge range of topics to discuss with him. This is going to be a blast. Please stay with us and join us again after the break.
We are thrilled to welcome freshman Congressman Wiley Nickel on “The Downballot” today. Congressman Nickel represents North Carolina's 13th Congressional District in the southern Raleigh suburbs. Thank you so much for joining us today, Congressman.
Wiley Nickel: Hey, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Beard: I'm personally very happy that our first congressman to be on the show is from North Carolina, of course, my home state. So that's great news for me personally as well. So thank you for joining us.
Nickel: Yeah. I mean, listen, North Carolina is going to be the center of the political universe, so I'm glad you guys are starting with North Carolina here.
Beard: So to take us back a little bit, you're obviously a freshman congressman, but you first announced a run for Congress in October of 2021. And at that point in an old map, you announced for an open, safely blue district. And then in February of 2022, the North Carolina Supreme Court struck down that map. It was gerrymandered by the Republicans, of course, and ended up creating a reconfigured, highly competitive 13th district, the one you of course now represent.
So take us through that process of announcing for one district, having the map changed, deciding to run in this new very competitive district, and how that changed your race to go from a blue seat to this very tough seat.
Nickel: Yeah. I mean, the thing you can count on for North Carolina is that it's always going to be a rollercoaster. We seem to be drawing maps every two years. So we knew courts were going to step in because the Republican maps were absolutely unfair. They violated our constitution. So we knew that the place we were with these maps when we started wasn't where we were going to finish, and we ended up winning, flipping one of just six Republican seats, that flipped in this last election, and it turned into one of these races that really was a bellwether for where we are as a country, with MAGA extremism and women's rights.
Beard: Now of course, since you jumped into this very competitive seat, got through the primary, you end up matched against a Republican where a lot of money was going to be spent on his behalf. But it was a little bit of a strange Republican, Bo Hines. A junior varsity version of Madison Cawthorn; of course, everybody remembers him.
So what was it like to run against a 27-year-old MAGA candidate, who was largely known for playing college football in the area? It's got to be a much stranger race than running against, say, a state senator or a county commissioner or something.
Nickel: I mean, it was just weird. Our opponent, Bo Hines, one of those just extremely far-right Republicans. He campaigned with Trump, had Trump's endorsement, was a hundred percent pro-Trump. And I just had these nightmares every night that we were going to lose this race and this guy would be here in Congress voting to overturn an election. So, I had a lot of motivation, but we just campaigned on our values and it was one of these races where we really didn't get a lot of national support early on and really up until the end.
So, we just knew we had to just focus on two things, and we just campaigned on women's rights and MAGA extremism, and pro-democracy Republicans came and voted for me, and that was a big part of our coalition to winning in a race like this. And I think it was one of the races that really could have gone either way and tells you a lot about where we are as a country when we talk about the extreme far-right approach of so many of the Republicans today.
Nir: Last week, we had on a couple of guests from the progressive-data firm Catalist, and they talked about their analysis showing that extremist Republican candidates paid what they called a MAGA tax. And I absolutely love that phrase. Do you think Bo Hines paid a MAGA tax in your race?
Nickel: Yeah, I think so. And we wanted to collect those tax dollars for voters because that's what we... The thing for me... I've worked on a lot of presidential campaigns as a staffer. You want to know what a campaign's about at the end. If you're asking yourself what was that campaign about, you're doing something wrong. And I think you really just have to focus on issues. And we made sure everybody knew about his position, that he wanted to ban abortion. We spent the last few weeks debating his plan to have, essentially, rape panels for abortion, access for women who were raped, good rapes, bad rapes, this just horrible position of a case-by-case determination. So, that's the job of many campaigns, I think, to make sure folks know where your opponent stands.
Nir: Yeah. You just mentioned that you had previously worked on presidential campaigns. I'd love to hear a little bit about that. And then maybe you can also tell us what you learned is different about being the candidate versus being a staffer.
Nickel: I mean, they're both a lot of hard work. I think being a candidate after being a staffer, you appreciate all the jobs that everybody has because you've done most of them yourself. That, for me, was just knowing everyone's role, and making sure you just do your role as a candidate. And that means focusing on the things that you can control as a candidate and trusting a really good staff. And by the way, we had a really great staff. This was one of these races that really was within the field margins. The work we did organizing made a difference. The turnout work we did made a difference. We had huge support from organized labor. They came in and knocked close to 15,000 doors for us. But just making sure you're building a big coalition mattered. And when you've done all those jobs, it's a lot easier to get that stuff moving.
Beard: Forecasters rated your race somewhere between a toss-up up to even likely Republican. And, of course, I'm in the middle, at “lean Republican.” So, it definitely looked like outside observers thought it was going to be very tough for you to win, but you ended up winning 52 to 48. So, obviously, very close, but a clear victory. So, take us through that election day and election night as those results were coming in, what you were thinking and feeling, and when you knew you had actually won the election.
Nickel: Well, I mean, number one, I just want to say, I am a total political nerd. I love every bit of data that I can get out of Daily Kos. So I appreciate that, and I'm someone who just constantly is trying to learn as much as I can about how we do elections. So, thank you for that. But our race... Cook Report, I think, is one of the good places where you can really get a good idea of where places stand, and they had our races at toss-up the whole time. But you had places like FiveThirtyEight.com who gave me a 20% chance of winning on election day. They had some goofy stuff with how they looked at these races that I didn't like, but it was one that most people didn't think, up until the end, we could win. It's an off-year election; it's a Republican seat. But for us, you just have to take a leap of faith and believe in North Carolina.
And we just knew if we gave voters a choice in our race, they make the right choice. But it was amazing. We had no idea how it was going to go. A 3-point win was a huge win for us in this district. I think it was something close to 9,000 votes. So it was out of the recount range. We knew we had it on election night. And just one of those amazing nights because we got to send a message. Anyone who works in politics, all they want is to have one chance to send a message about where we are as a country, women's rights, on MAGA extremism. And we got to send that message with the win, which was really the best part.
Nir: Congressman, thank you for your very kind words about the analysis and data that we turn out here. I love hearing that you are a fellow election nerd. So I got to ask, when you guys are sitting there on election night or maybe standing around on election night following the results, were there any particular precincts or neighborhoods or towns that you were looking at as bellwethers? I mean, this is the kind of in-the-weeds stuff that I know that our listeners love to hear about.
Nickel: Yeah, no, I mean, we did about what we thought we would do in three of the more Republican counties. We were looking at southern Wake, and Holly Springs, and Apex, and Cary, where we overperformed. And that was the result of a lot of turnout. Tons of volunteers. I mean, we really knew this was the race that could go either way. So we had people from all over the state coming and rolling up their sleeves. But I think southern Wake is going to be a bellwether for a lot of races in North Carolina and one that really is... We think we have the fastest-growing congressional district in the country right now. So, the growth we're seeing really matters in a district like mine. But I think for the state too, you should definitely be looking at how folks do in places like southern Wake County.
Beard: Now, you've been in office for about six months, and of course, you were previously a state senator, so you know some about being an elected official. But what surprised you the most about being in the United States Congress so far?
Nickel: I worked for two White Houses, so I understand the pace here. The thing that I think is the most amazing is the other people I serve with, the freshmen Democrats, there's 36, I think, of us freshmen Democrats, and we all really like each other. We spend a lot of time together. It's folks who have very different districts, but we're all incredibly supportive, and that group... and with the rest of the house Democrats too. It's been an absolutely amazing start to Congress because of the people I serve with. That really has been the best part. And I think it says a lot about where we're going in this next election.
And I think for folks listening, they should know we are going to take back control of the US House. Hakeem Jeffries will be the next Speaker of the House. But it's because we have such a great group that really... I've read about drama in the last Congress, but I haven't seen any of it. It's really just been a ton of support. It's hanging out with folks like Maxwell Frost. I took him to a concert for The National and did shots. We all hang out and we have fun. And I think that's what you need. I always try to do the—approach politics as the Ted Lasso approach. And anytime I can just keep it positive and focused on what we need to do, it works out well. And so far, it's been a really great group with Hakeem Jeffries, Katherine Clark, Pete Aguilar at the top. I think folks, if they don't know those are leaders too, they should.
Nir: So, you mentioned Maxwell Frost. I got to ask, who else are your buddies in the 118th Congress?
Nickel: I mean, really, every single member of the freshmen. Freshmen Democrats are just an amazing group, and everybody has a great story. I think that the difference that I see is, we all really like each other. And on the Republican side, I don't see the same. They're not having fun. The Republican House freshmen, I don't think most of them really trust each other. I spend a lot of time with folks like Dan Goldman. Maxwell is great for live music, talk about that all the time with him.
And by the way, we made some news today, too. I'm on the House Financial Services Committee. We're talking about live music. And I knew that Jerome Powell had just been to a Dead & Company concert a few weeks ago here in D.C. and I got to ask him about that. I think what I guess counts as news these days that... He made some news that he's a big Grateful Dead fan for the last 50 years. So, if you don't know anything about Jerome Powell, now all your listeners know. He also is a big fan of the Grateful Dead.
Nir: That's hilarious. Did you ask him about this in a committee hearing in the House of Representatives?
Nickel: Oh, yeah, no. He comes to the House Financial Services Committee twice a year. The last time he was here, I was so low in seniority to ask a question. I was kind of near the top. And that's what I lead with. And what I try to do is, when I'm questioning witnesses in these committee hearings, I try to soften them up with something to humanize folks as best I can. And he was glad to talk about the Grateful Dead, so it kind of helped lead into the next questions about the economy. But check it out. It's all over social media.
Nir: So of course we have to talk about North Carolina Republicans and their plans to once again gerrymander the congressional map. As we've talked about on “The Downballot” before, Republicans flipped the state Supreme Court in November. And very quickly, in a totally lawless ruling, the brand new GOP majority overturned a previous ruling saying that partisan gerrymandering violated the state constitution, therefore giving the GOP a green light to completely wreck this very fair nonpartisan map that you were elected on. And we don't know how things are going to change. There's many, many different directions that Republicans could go with their new gerrymander. The only thing we do know is that they are certain to target multiple Democrats who currently are members of the House in your state. So do you have any thoughts or any insights into what they might actually do to redraw the lines? And just overall, how are you approaching this challenge?
Nickel: Yeah, it's certainly a challenge. And like I said earlier, North Carolina, we seem to redraw maps every two years. We might get maps that change again in the next, the cycle after next, but we don't have the Supreme Court anymore. And fundamentally, the vast majority of voters support independent redistricting where voters choose their politicians, not the other way around. And that's always been my position.
So I think we start there. The extreme partisan gerrymandering is, it may take some time, but eventually it will go away, and we will get fair maps all over this country. That's, I think, the number one thing we need to do, and we need to get around the filibuster in the Senate to make sure we get fair maps because that would change everything. But there's a lot of good stuff in North Carolina. I think overall, you're right, it's going to be bad overall for Democrats in North Carolin congressional seats, but we got a good Supreme Court ruling — thank you, Brett Kavanaugh — on racial gerrymandering. So that's a good thing. That's going to make it harder for them to waste Democratic votes. That's a good thing.
In North Carolina, too, we've got what is shaping up to be the most competitive race for governor and for president in the country. I've talked to President Biden about this, the need to invest all the way in North Carolina, and that would mean a huge investment in getting folks out to vote. We got the votes. If Democrats had voted in the same numbers as Republicans in the last election, Cheri Beasley would be in the US Senate right now. I think we're going to see a huge investment in turnout in North Carolina that matters. And for us in the Triangle, we've got what we believe is one of the fastest-growing congressional districts in the country, trending for Democrats in a major way.
So I think that that is important for our area, but we know they're not going to make it easy. And the thing that I just focus on is trying to work harder than anybody else. That's the way I approach politics, and I hope everybody out there who works on campaigns, who does field, who knocks on doors, just knows if we continue to work harder than the other guys, we're going to be successful. And that's what got me to win this seat in Congress. And I think that's the approach that's going to best serve us as we try to do everything we can to hold this seat. And it's a seat that we got to hold to take the majority in the next Congress. So we're going to fight hard, and we're hopeful that we're going to have, at least in our race, a good competitive race where we're going to have a shot to hold the seat.
Beard: There are, of course, a number of Democrats who hold pretty Republican districts, Jared Golden from Maine, Mary Peltola, of course, from Alaska, and a number of other congressmen and congresswomen in very competitive districts. Have you spoken with any of them about the best way to go after Republican voters or ways to run in these really tough districts?
Nickel: Yeah, no, I enjoy talking with Jared Golden, Marie Gluesenkamp Perez. They have a good approach. We share a lot of the same kind of insights on the best way to reach out to rural voters. And there's a lot of ground we can and need to make up with rural folks all over the country and you certainly can win these seats. Folks like Jon Tester, a good example there. I think he's running for reelection in a seat that presidential numbers were pretty bad on the Democratic side, but they send him there and send him back.
So there are ways to win in tougher seats. We've got a lot of folks who've been doing that and a lot of good lessons to learn. But really, for me, the lesson I learned that I think best serves me, anybody who wants to do this is I worked for Al Gore, traveled with him, I worked for Barack Obama. The lesson, I think, there for Gore, who was a really wonderful guy behind the scenes, is be yourself. And Obama was always himself on camera, off camera, and I think voters have a really good bullshit detector. I just do my best to be myself, be genuine, talk to folks, try not to use complicated words to describe the problems we face. And if you do that, I think you're going to be successful in this business.
Nir: So one thing I'm curious about, you talked about being a consumer of our data. Most of the politicians I've spoken to in my lifetime, they tend to be interested in their own election. They aren't necessarily election junkies interested in races around the country. So I'm really curious to know how you consume our data. How does it inform what you do? Why do you like it so much?
Nickel: I think you have to just look at how other people win. And so, like you said, we thought we might be in a different kind of district. We looked at all the coverage you had of races like Jake Auchincloss. So I think the more you can look at how other people are successful, that helps. The data, I think you want to get advantages in politics. Any way you can get advantage by talking to folks or campaigning in a certain way, you want to do it.
And at least for me, the data shows you where good campaigns go. And the more I get, the better I can make decisions. But please keep it coming. I will be consuming every bit I can for House races, especially for those places like Jared Golden, Marie Perez, Marcy Kaptur, Mary Peltola. Those are ones that we're going to spend a lot of time looking at. And Jonn Tester.
Nir: Absolutely. Well, we have been talking with freshman Congressman Wiley Nickel of North Carolina's 13th Congressional District. We have absolutely loved having you on. Before we let you go, Congressman, where can our listeners follow you and keep track of your race? And if they want to get involved in your campaign, how can they do that?
Nickel: We really enjoy interacting with folks on social media. I'd encourage folks to go to @wileynickel on Twitter or wileynickelNC on Facebook and Instagram. Our website is wileynickelforcongress.com. You can join the campaign, you can do remote call time, you can donate. Those are all great ways, but I hope folks will give us a follow and take a look at what we're doing. You can learn a lot about where the twists and turns will go in North Carolina but would love to get anyone involved in one of these toss-up races that really could be the difference in this next election.
Nir: Congressman, thank you so much for joining us on “The Downballot” this week.
Nickel: Thanks for having me.
Beard: That's all from us this week. Thanks to Congressman Nickel for joining us. “The Downballot” comes out every Thursday, everywhere you listen to podcasts. You can reach out to us by emailing thedownballot@dailycoast.com. If you haven't already, please subscribe to “The Downballot” on Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Thanks to our producer Walter Einenkel and editor Trevor Jones. We'll be back next week with a new episode.
Embedded Content
Co-hosts David Nir and David Beard also recap Tuesday's awesome primary results in Virginia that spelled the end of the execrable Joe Morrissey's career in the state Senate. What's more, thanks to losses by several other conservative Democratic incumbents, the Democratic caucus will grow more progressive overall next year. But it's not all good news: The Davids tear apart a pair of awful GOP bills just signed by Texas Gov. Greg Abbott aimed at giving Republicans control of elections in the state's largest county—which just so happens to be trending to the left.
This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity.
David Beard: Hello and welcome. I'm David Beard, contributing editor for Daily Kos Elections.
David Nir: And I'm David Nir, political director of Daily Kos. “The Downballot” is a weekly podcast dedicated to the many elections that take place below the presidency from Senate to city council. Please subscribe to “The Downballot” on Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review.
Beard: We've got a really special episode this week I'm very excited about. Tell us about it.
Nir: I am super stoked as well. First up, we are going to be discussing the excellent election results that just came out of the Virginia primaries this week. Then we're going to be talking about some not-so-excellent bills passed by Texas Republicans that would allow them to subvert elections in the state's largest county. But the reason why we're so excited is that our guest this week is North Carolina Congressman Wiley Nickel who was first elected to the 13th District last year. We are going to be talking about his unlikely win, what the future holds for him, what he thinks Republicans are going to do with gerrymandering in his state, and much, much more. Excellent, excellent episode and interview coming up, so let's get rolling.
Beard, I don't know how many times I've said it so far this year, but we had another freaking great election night. What's going on?
Beard: I know, I know. I'm sure at some point the worm will turn and we'll have some bad ones, but I'm just going to keep pushing that as far down the road as possible because this is much more fun.
Nir: Yeah, this is way more fun. I'm not even going to think about it. Let's think about Tuesday night, Virginia primaries, multiple conservative Democratic dinosaurs, lost bids to more progressive opponents, but obviously by far the most important to go down in flames was Joe Morrissey. Former delegate, Lachrecse Aird absolutely crushed him by a 69-31 margin. We have devoted a lot of time on this show to just how awful Joe Morrissey is. More than anything else though... Well, you know what? It's actually very hard to pick what the worst thing about Joe Morrissey is, whether it's his many, many scandals, the fact that his estranged wife is now in divorce allegations claiming that he had abused her and in fact had sex with her when she was still just 17 years old, or the fact that he calls himself pro-life and had held himself out as a possible ally to Republicans who wanted to ban abortion to at least one degree or another in Virginia.
Anyway, he's gone. He's done. And what this means is that Democrats will no longer ever have to rely on Joe Morrissey again. They only have a 22 to 18 margin in the Senate. But what that means is that even if they lose a seat this November, they'll still have 21 reliable members in the caucus, which means that they won't be at risk of a situation where you have a 20 to 20 vote and the far-right lieutenant governor gets to break ties. And that was always a threat with Morrissey.
Look, he could still have yet another political comeback in him. He has had many in the past including running for office when he was in jail, which he managed to do successfully. So I guess you can't rule that out, but he's getting up there in years at this point. And this was just a thumping. He had defied and confounded political observers for years with his ability to survive in spite of everything but losing more than two to one, I'd like to think his career is over.
Beard: Yeah. I think one of the old phrases is sunlight is the best disinfectant and I think that really was part of the case here where because of the fact that the Senate was 21 to 19 before Democrats won that special election, the fact that he was then the deciding vote on things like potential abortion legislation and other things really made the fact that he was this huge embarrassment and this risk on all these issues so much brighter.
His attempted run for Congress, I think was a huge mistake from his part just to raise his profile which is really what he wouldn't have wanted because I think oftentimes he had skated through in these low-turnout elections based on some very small number of alliances and interpersonal relationships. Once it became a broader race with issues that were really important to people and then you had a great candidate like Aird in, he had no chance at that point. I don't think any comeback is going to let him get back to what used to make him successful.
Nir: I think that's a really good point. And in a way, it reminds me a little bit of what happened with the IDC New York. That was the group of renegade Democrats in the state Senate here who had for years propped up the GOP and cited with Republican leaders against the rest of their party. And in the Trump era, once their actions became, I don't know, better known, like you said, more sunlight cast down upon them, then people started seeing, "Oh wow, you're actually propping up the bad guys. We don't want you around anymore." I think like Morrissey, he was really a political cockroach and I think that analogy is apt in more ways than one because I think he, like you say, he thrived in the darkness and not in the light.
I think the IDC analogy goes even a little bit more broadly because multiple conservative or more moderate Democratic incumbents lost on Tuesday night in Virginia. In fact, five incumbent state senators lost their primaries. That was as many in a single night as had lost primaries over the last two and a half decades. And the end result is that the Democratic caucus is going to get a lot more progressive overall.
One of the real shock upsets was longtime state Senator Chap Petersen, who was defeated by Saddam Salim by a 54-46 margin despite outspending his opponent more than five to one. Petersen is one of these old-school guys who flipped a seat held by Republicans in northern Virginia back in 2007 and he never really seemed to grasp the notion that northern Virginia had just become a lot bluer over the years. In fact, the district that he wanted to continue representing had voted for Joe Biden with 70% of the vote.
By the way, as an aside, I should note that this is the first time that Virginia is holding elections on new maps. So a lot of these incumbents were facing new constituents, but that wasn't Petersen's only problem by any stretch. In 2021 when Democrats still had control of all of Virginia's state government, he helped kill a ban on assault weapons. He was always bad on guns. There's this quote from him from the AP at the time. He said, "I may have been a Joe Manchin type, but I was one of a few Joe Manchins in the Senate. I mean, the Senate defeated a number of House bills that we thought were overreaching, but that's kind of our role."
I mean, no, it really isn't. Your role is to represent your constituents and to pass good legislation and to make Virginia proud. It's not this sort of, I don't know, fantasy DC beltway pundit idea of the Senate being the saucer that cools the teacup that they talk about with the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives. So it seems that Petersen just really had a mistaken idea of what his role as a legislature was supposed to be, and he wasn't the only one.
Beard: Yeah. I think Petersen, despite way outspending his opponent, just never had a good message beyond his generic Manchin moderateness. And Salim, who I didn't really know much about before last night, just has a great story and clearly was able to get that out there, despite not having as much money as Petersen. He immigrated from Bangladesh in the wake of floods when he was eight years old with his family. His family was homeless on the streets of DC for a time when he was young. Friends took them in and he ended up going to middle school and high school in Fairfax County, did a lot of incredibly impressive stuff, had to learn English because when they were evicted, nobody in the family spoke English, so they didn't know what was happening as a result of them. And then they became homeless. So it's just a great, great story, and I think he's going to be a huge upgrade on Petersen.
Nir: Yeah. There's just no question about that. Petersen and Morrissey weren't the only more moderate to conservative Democrats who lost. There was one incumbent versus incumbent matchup between Senators Louise Lucas and Lionel Spruill. Lucas, who is the much more liberal of the two, won 53 to 47. As the Washington Post put it, Spruill had the quote “habit” of walking off the floor to avoid voting on LGBTQ rights measures. And in this Washington Post piece, it actually just links to a vote on a particular bill that lists the roll call and Spruill is listed as the one person who's absent, which I just thought was a nice nerdy way to damn him.
Spruill had claimed he's not anti-gay. He said, "I have people in my family that way. That's their choice." I mean, talk about being out of step. Do we even need to get into why that statement just sounds so, so wrong? Anyway, he's going to be gone too now.
Beard: Yeah. The only thing I'll say about that is that if he so desperately doesn't want to vote in the state Senate, he doesn't have to anymore. He doesn't have to vote on anything anymore. So go take your retirement.
Nir: Well, one other person who soon will not be able to vote on anything in the state Senate anymore is the one Republican senator who lost, and that was Amanda Chase. Now, in a way, this is “bad” news. I put air quotes around bad. She is a disaster train wreck of a human being. She called herself Trump in heels, and she had made enemies of pretty much every single other member of the Republican Party; her caucus absolutely despised her. The only reason why I say this is bad news is that had she won renomination, it's possible that Democrats could have made her district competitive. It's still not really very friendly turf though. So even if Chase had been the nominee, the race probably wouldn't have come online. She lost very narrowly though 39 to 38 to former state Senator Glen Sturtevant.
But there will be a pretty considerable playing field of competitive races. There are at least four races that are almost certainly going to be up for grabs in November. Several more that could come online on either side. The Senate is really close, like I mentioned. Republicans only need two seats to take control again. Because if there's a 2020 tie, the lieutenant governor can break ties.
The House is also very close. Republicans hold a 52-48 majority there. So Democrats need three seats to take outright control of the House. There wasn't the same intense primary action on the House side on Tuesday night, but there will be an even bigger playing field in November, and we will take a deep dive into those races very soon as well.
Beard: Yes. That will be the big legislative races of the fall, obviously in Virginia, where both chambers are going to be up for grabs. Glenn Youngkin would love to take over the state Senate and hold the House to pass a bunch of Republican legislation and then last minute run for president or something. So there's going to be a big fight there, and Democrats are going to want to take over the House and prepare for 2025 elections with an open governor's race.
Nir: So that does it for our Virginia wrap-up, but there is one other important state we want to talk about, and that is Texas, where Republicans just passed some extremely retrograde bills that are pure and simple designed to undermine democracy.
Beard: Yeah. Texas, of course, has a long history of going after voting rights and making it hard for people of color, college students, et cetera, to vote. Basically anyone who might vote for Democrats, they don't want you to vote. They just want Republicans to vote. And in the latest line of attacks, GOP Governor Greg Abbott, just signed two pieces of legislation that would attack these voting rights further.
Both of them go after a single county in Texas, Harris County, which is home to Houston and more than 4.7 million people. And of course, it's also a county that's been shifting left since the Trump era. Now, normally county officials have very wide authority in Texas when it comes to running elections in their jurisdictions. And under Democratic leadership recently, Harris County has made voting more accessible. But of course, as I said, Republicans don't want that.
So the first of these new laws empowers Republican Secretary of State Jane Nelson, who is an Abbott appointee, to take over almost every aspect of election administration. And she can do that basically with very little pretext. All she needs is a candidate or party, like the Republican Party, to file a complaint. And all she needs is good cause to believe that a recurring pattern of problems with election administration or voter registration exists in accounting.
But she doesn't have to prove that. She just has to believe it. So basically she can just take this power based on the flimsiest of complaints from the Republican Party and take over basically all of the running of Harris County elections. And who knows what restrictions, what changes, what polling place closures that she might go and enact once she takes control of elections in Harris County. So that's a huge problem.
But even if that doesn't happen, the second bill also significantly alters who runs elections in Harris County. That law abolishes the position of election administrator, which is a nonpartisan official that's been appointed by county lawmakers. It gets rid of that and instead reverts it to the elected county clerk and tax assessor.
Now, while Democrats hold those offices currently, of course Harris County has been very competitive in recent years. So there's every possibility that Republicans could win back those offices, and run the elections by winning those next county elections.
And of course, the way that these laws were targeted, it of course doesn't say Harris County in the bill, but the first bill only applies to counties with at least 4 million residents. And the second only applies to counties with more than 3.5 million residents. The second-largest county in Texas is Dallas County. It only has a population of 2.6 million. It's way below the threshold. So obviously these are very specifically targeted towards Harris County and towards the blue-shifting Harris County the Republicans are mad about.
Nir: That bit about reverting power over elections to the tax assessor is wild. Why the tax assessor? So our Daily Kos Elections colleague Stephen Wolf wrote about this and it turns out that the tax assessor's role historically was a relic of Jim Crow, because the tax assessor was responsible for maintaining voter registration roles.
Why the tax assessor? Because they assessed poll taxes. I mean, holy crap. So this system of having the clerk and the tax assessor run elections apparently has been done away with in all of Texas's major counties. So this represents just a bizarre rollback. And of course, you could understand why Republicans like it.
Beard: Yeah. Does it surprise me the Republicans are doing this? No. But it's still outrageous.
Nir: Yeah. There are of course promised legal challenges. Opponents say that the Texas State Constitution prohibits laws that single out a specific jurisdiction, and that may be why Republicans have tried this absolute nonsense with these population thresholds and also doing arbitrarily different ones in each bill 4 million in one and 3.5 million in the other, to try to claim that they really aren't targeting just Harris County.
Any reasonable judge you'd think would find that, yeah, no, this really does target an individual county. I would say though, that the Texas state courts have to be just about the worst in the nation, if not the worst. And there are some red states where the Supreme Courts are conservative, but at least potentially reasonable. Texas isn't one of them. Texas is just a far-right, partisan, hack court that really will rubber stamp just about anything that Abbott and the legislature do. So I'm not optimistic here. Really, there's just not a lot to say. This is just more bullshit.
Beard: Yeah. I agree completely that it's very hard to see the Texas Supreme Court coming to help, even if there's some very clear reasons why this legislation is unconstitutional. So we've seen in places you can fight through a lot of these types of voter restrictions, that doesn't mean you should have to. I want to be clear on that. These laws are crap. But the fact that they're there doesn't mean that Democrats can't still do well in Harris County. They just have to fight even harder to do so.
Nir: Well that does it for our weekly hits. Coming up, we have a very exciting interview. It's a first for “The Downballot.” We are going to be talking with North Carolina Congressman Wiley Nickel, who was first elected to office just last year. We have a huge range of topics to discuss with him. This is going to be a blast. Please stay with us and join us again after the break.
We are thrilled to welcome freshman Congressman Wiley Nickel on “The Downballot” today. Congressman Nickel represents North Carolina's 13th Congressional District in the southern Raleigh suburbs. Thank you so much for joining us today, Congressman.
Wiley Nickel: Hey, it's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Beard: I'm personally very happy that our first congressman to be on the show is from North Carolina, of course, my home state. So that's great news for me personally as well. So thank you for joining us.
Nickel: Yeah. I mean, listen, North Carolina is going to be the center of the political universe, so I'm glad you guys are starting with North Carolina here.
Beard: So to take us back a little bit, you're obviously a freshman congressman, but you first announced a run for Congress in October of 2021. And at that point in an old map, you announced for an open, safely blue district. And then in February of 2022, the North Carolina Supreme Court struck down that map. It was gerrymandered by the Republicans, of course, and ended up creating a reconfigured, highly competitive 13th district, the one you of course now represent.
So take us through that process of announcing for one district, having the map changed, deciding to run in this new very competitive district, and how that changed your race to go from a blue seat to this very tough seat.
Nickel: Yeah. I mean, the thing you can count on for North Carolina is that it's always going to be a rollercoaster. We seem to be drawing maps every two years. So we knew courts were going to step in because the Republican maps were absolutely unfair. They violated our constitution. So we knew that the place we were with these maps when we started wasn't where we were going to finish, and we ended up winning, flipping one of just six Republican seats, that flipped in this last election, and it turned into one of these races that really was a bellwether for where we are as a country, with MAGA extremism and women's rights.
Beard: Now of course, since you jumped into this very competitive seat, got through the primary, you end up matched against a Republican where a lot of money was going to be spent on his behalf. But it was a little bit of a strange Republican, Bo Hines. A junior varsity version of Madison Cawthorn; of course, everybody remembers him.
So what was it like to run against a 27-year-old MAGA candidate, who was largely known for playing college football in the area? It's got to be a much stranger race than running against, say, a state senator or a county commissioner or something.
Nickel: I mean, it was just weird. Our opponent, Bo Hines, one of those just extremely far-right Republicans. He campaigned with Trump, had Trump's endorsement, was a hundred percent pro-Trump. And I just had these nightmares every night that we were going to lose this race and this guy would be here in Congress voting to overturn an election. So, I had a lot of motivation, but we just campaigned on our values and it was one of these races where we really didn't get a lot of national support early on and really up until the end.
So, we just knew we had to just focus on two things, and we just campaigned on women's rights and MAGA extremism, and pro-democracy Republicans came and voted for me, and that was a big part of our coalition to winning in a race like this. And I think it was one of the races that really could have gone either way and tells you a lot about where we are as a country when we talk about the extreme far-right approach of so many of the Republicans today.
Nir: Last week, we had on a couple of guests from the progressive-data firm Catalist, and they talked about their analysis showing that extremist Republican candidates paid what they called a MAGA tax. And I absolutely love that phrase. Do you think Bo Hines paid a MAGA tax in your race?
Nickel: Yeah, I think so. And we wanted to collect those tax dollars for voters because that's what we... The thing for me... I've worked on a lot of presidential campaigns as a staffer. You want to know what a campaign's about at the end. If you're asking yourself what was that campaign about, you're doing something wrong. And I think you really just have to focus on issues. And we made sure everybody knew about his position, that he wanted to ban abortion. We spent the last few weeks debating his plan to have, essentially, rape panels for abortion, access for women who were raped, good rapes, bad rapes, this just horrible position of a case-by-case determination. So, that's the job of many campaigns, I think, to make sure folks know where your opponent stands.
Nir: Yeah. You just mentioned that you had previously worked on presidential campaigns. I'd love to hear a little bit about that. And then maybe you can also tell us what you learned is different about being the candidate versus being a staffer.
Nickel: I mean, they're both a lot of hard work. I think being a candidate after being a staffer, you appreciate all the jobs that everybody has because you've done most of them yourself. That, for me, was just knowing everyone's role, and making sure you just do your role as a candidate. And that means focusing on the things that you can control as a candidate and trusting a really good staff. And by the way, we had a really great staff. This was one of these races that really was within the field margins. The work we did organizing made a difference. The turnout work we did made a difference. We had huge support from organized labor. They came in and knocked close to 15,000 doors for us. But just making sure you're building a big coalition mattered. And when you've done all those jobs, it's a lot easier to get that stuff moving.
Beard: Forecasters rated your race somewhere between a toss-up up to even likely Republican. And, of course, I'm in the middle, at “lean Republican.” So, it definitely looked like outside observers thought it was going to be very tough for you to win, but you ended up winning 52 to 48. So, obviously, very close, but a clear victory. So, take us through that election day and election night as those results were coming in, what you were thinking and feeling, and when you knew you had actually won the election.
Nickel: Well, I mean, number one, I just want to say, I am a total political nerd. I love every bit of data that I can get out of Daily Kos. So I appreciate that, and I'm someone who just constantly is trying to learn as much as I can about how we do elections. So, thank you for that. But our race... Cook Report, I think, is one of the good places where you can really get a good idea of where places stand, and they had our races at toss-up the whole time. But you had places like FiveThirtyEight.com who gave me a 20% chance of winning on election day. They had some goofy stuff with how they looked at these races that I didn't like, but it was one that most people didn't think, up until the end, we could win. It's an off-year election; it's a Republican seat. But for us, you just have to take a leap of faith and believe in North Carolina.
And we just knew if we gave voters a choice in our race, they make the right choice. But it was amazing. We had no idea how it was going to go. A 3-point win was a huge win for us in this district. I think it was something close to 9,000 votes. So it was out of the recount range. We knew we had it on election night. And just one of those amazing nights because we got to send a message. Anyone who works in politics, all they want is to have one chance to send a message about where we are as a country, women's rights, on MAGA extremism. And we got to send that message with the win, which was really the best part.
Nir: Congressman, thank you for your very kind words about the analysis and data that we turn out here. I love hearing that you are a fellow election nerd. So I got to ask, when you guys are sitting there on election night or maybe standing around on election night following the results, were there any particular precincts or neighborhoods or towns that you were looking at as bellwethers? I mean, this is the kind of in-the-weeds stuff that I know that our listeners love to hear about.
Nickel: Yeah, no, I mean, we did about what we thought we would do in three of the more Republican counties. We were looking at southern Wake, and Holly Springs, and Apex, and Cary, where we overperformed. And that was the result of a lot of turnout. Tons of volunteers. I mean, we really knew this was the race that could go either way. So we had people from all over the state coming and rolling up their sleeves. But I think southern Wake is going to be a bellwether for a lot of races in North Carolina and one that really is... We think we have the fastest-growing congressional district in the country right now. So, the growth we're seeing really matters in a district like mine. But I think for the state too, you should definitely be looking at how folks do in places like southern Wake County.
Beard: Now, you've been in office for about six months, and of course, you were previously a state senator, so you know some about being an elected official. But what surprised you the most about being in the United States Congress so far?
Nickel: I worked for two White Houses, so I understand the pace here. The thing that I think is the most amazing is the other people I serve with, the freshmen Democrats, there's 36, I think, of us freshmen Democrats, and we all really like each other. We spend a lot of time together. It's folks who have very different districts, but we're all incredibly supportive, and that group... and with the rest of the house Democrats too. It's been an absolutely amazing start to Congress because of the people I serve with. That really has been the best part. And I think it says a lot about where we're going in this next election.
And I think for folks listening, they should know we are going to take back control of the US House. Hakeem Jeffries will be the next Speaker of the House. But it's because we have such a great group that really... I've read about drama in the last Congress, but I haven't seen any of it. It's really just been a ton of support. It's hanging out with folks like Maxwell Frost. I took him to a concert for The National and did shots. We all hang out and we have fun. And I think that's what you need. I always try to do the—approach politics as the Ted Lasso approach. And anytime I can just keep it positive and focused on what we need to do, it works out well. And so far, it's been a really great group with Hakeem Jeffries, Katherine Clark, Pete Aguilar at the top. I think folks, if they don't know those are leaders too, they should.
Nir: So, you mentioned Maxwell Frost. I got to ask, who else are your buddies in the 118th Congress?
Nickel: I mean, really, every single member of the freshmen. Freshmen Democrats are just an amazing group, and everybody has a great story. I think that the difference that I see is, we all really like each other. And on the Republican side, I don't see the same. They're not having fun. The Republican House freshmen, I don't think most of them really trust each other. I spend a lot of time with folks like Dan Goldman. Maxwell is great for live music, talk about that all the time with him.
And by the way, we made some news today, too. I'm on the House Financial Services Committee. We're talking about live music. And I knew that Jerome Powell had just been to a Dead & Company concert a few weeks ago here in D.C. and I got to ask him about that. I think what I guess counts as news these days that... He made some news that he's a big Grateful Dead fan for the last 50 years. So, if you don't know anything about Jerome Powell, now all your listeners know. He also is a big fan of the Grateful Dead.
Nir: That's hilarious. Did you ask him about this in a committee hearing in the House of Representatives?
Nickel: Oh, yeah, no. He comes to the House Financial Services Committee twice a year. The last time he was here, I was so low in seniority to ask a question. I was kind of near the top. And that's what I lead with. And what I try to do is, when I'm questioning witnesses in these committee hearings, I try to soften them up with something to humanize folks as best I can. And he was glad to talk about the Grateful Dead, so it kind of helped lead into the next questions about the economy. But check it out. It's all over social media.
Nir: So of course we have to talk about North Carolina Republicans and their plans to once again gerrymander the congressional map. As we've talked about on “The Downballot” before, Republicans flipped the state Supreme Court in November. And very quickly, in a totally lawless ruling, the brand new GOP majority overturned a previous ruling saying that partisan gerrymandering violated the state constitution, therefore giving the GOP a green light to completely wreck this very fair nonpartisan map that you were elected on. And we don't know how things are going to change. There's many, many different directions that Republicans could go with their new gerrymander. The only thing we do know is that they are certain to target multiple Democrats who currently are members of the House in your state. So do you have any thoughts or any insights into what they might actually do to redraw the lines? And just overall, how are you approaching this challenge?
Nickel: Yeah, it's certainly a challenge. And like I said earlier, North Carolina, we seem to redraw maps every two years. We might get maps that change again in the next, the cycle after next, but we don't have the Supreme Court anymore. And fundamentally, the vast majority of voters support independent redistricting where voters choose their politicians, not the other way around. And that's always been my position.
So I think we start there. The extreme partisan gerrymandering is, it may take some time, but eventually it will go away, and we will get fair maps all over this country. That's, I think, the number one thing we need to do, and we need to get around the filibuster in the Senate to make sure we get fair maps because that would change everything. But there's a lot of good stuff in North Carolina. I think overall, you're right, it's going to be bad overall for Democrats in North Carolin congressional seats, but we got a good Supreme Court ruling — thank you, Brett Kavanaugh — on racial gerrymandering. So that's a good thing. That's going to make it harder for them to waste Democratic votes. That's a good thing.
In North Carolina, too, we've got what is shaping up to be the most competitive race for governor and for president in the country. I've talked to President Biden about this, the need to invest all the way in North Carolina, and that would mean a huge investment in getting folks out to vote. We got the votes. If Democrats had voted in the same numbers as Republicans in the last election, Cheri Beasley would be in the US Senate right now. I think we're going to see a huge investment in turnout in North Carolina that matters. And for us in the Triangle, we've got what we believe is one of the fastest-growing congressional districts in the country, trending for Democrats in a major way.
So I think that that is important for our area, but we know they're not going to make it easy. And the thing that I just focus on is trying to work harder than anybody else. That's the way I approach politics, and I hope everybody out there who works on campaigns, who does field, who knocks on doors, just knows if we continue to work harder than the other guys, we're going to be successful. And that's what got me to win this seat in Congress. And I think that's the approach that's going to best serve us as we try to do everything we can to hold this seat. And it's a seat that we got to hold to take the majority in the next Congress. So we're going to fight hard, and we're hopeful that we're going to have, at least in our race, a good competitive race where we're going to have a shot to hold the seat.
Beard: There are, of course, a number of Democrats who hold pretty Republican districts, Jared Golden from Maine, Mary Peltola, of course, from Alaska, and a number of other congressmen and congresswomen in very competitive districts. Have you spoken with any of them about the best way to go after Republican voters or ways to run in these really tough districts?
Nickel: Yeah, no, I enjoy talking with Jared Golden, Marie Gluesenkamp Perez. They have a good approach. We share a lot of the same kind of insights on the best way to reach out to rural voters. And there's a lot of ground we can and need to make up with rural folks all over the country and you certainly can win these seats. Folks like Jon Tester, a good example there. I think he's running for reelection in a seat that presidential numbers were pretty bad on the Democratic side, but they send him there and send him back.
So there are ways to win in tougher seats. We've got a lot of folks who've been doing that and a lot of good lessons to learn. But really, for me, the lesson I learned that I think best serves me, anybody who wants to do this is I worked for Al Gore, traveled with him, I worked for Barack Obama. The lesson, I think, there for Gore, who was a really wonderful guy behind the scenes, is be yourself. And Obama was always himself on camera, off camera, and I think voters have a really good bullshit detector. I just do my best to be myself, be genuine, talk to folks, try not to use complicated words to describe the problems we face. And if you do that, I think you're going to be successful in this business.
Nir: So one thing I'm curious about, you talked about being a consumer of our data. Most of the politicians I've spoken to in my lifetime, they tend to be interested in their own election. They aren't necessarily election junkies interested in races around the country. So I'm really curious to know how you consume our data. How does it inform what you do? Why do you like it so much?
Nickel: I think you have to just look at how other people win. And so, like you said, we thought we might be in a different kind of district. We looked at all the coverage you had of races like Jake Auchincloss. So I think the more you can look at how other people are successful, that helps. The data, I think you want to get advantages in politics. Any way you can get advantage by talking to folks or campaigning in a certain way, you want to do it.
And at least for me, the data shows you where good campaigns go. And the more I get, the better I can make decisions. But please keep it coming. I will be consuming every bit I can for House races, especially for those places like Jared Golden, Marie Perez, Marcy Kaptur, Mary Peltola. Those are ones that we're going to spend a lot of time looking at. And Jonn Tester.
Nir: Absolutely. Well, we have been talking with freshman Congressman Wiley Nickel of North Carolina's 13th Congressional District. We have absolutely loved having you on. Before we let you go, Congressman, where can our listeners follow you and keep track of your race? And if they want to get involved in your campaign, how can they do that?
Nickel: We really enjoy interacting with folks on social media. I'd encourage folks to go to @wileynickel on Twitter or wileynickelNC on Facebook and Instagram. Our website is wileynickelforcongress.com. You can join the campaign, you can do remote call time, you can donate. Those are all great ways, but I hope folks will give us a follow and take a look at what we're doing. You can learn a lot about where the twists and turns will go in North Carolina but would love to get anyone involved in one of these toss-up races that really could be the difference in this next election.
Nir: Congressman, thank you so much for joining us on “The Downballot” this week.
Nickel: Thanks for having me.
Beard: That's all from us this week. Thanks to Congressman Nickel for joining us. “The Downballot” comes out every Thursday, everywhere you listen to podcasts. You can reach out to us by emailing thedownballot@dailycoast.com. If you haven't already, please subscribe to “The Downballot” on Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Thanks to our producer Walter Einenkel and editor Trevor Jones. We'll be back next week with a new episode.